The One Decision That Decides Most Baseball Games

The swing that wins on a showcase doesn’t always win with two strikes and a runner on second. We sat down with Cloverleaf head coach Aaron DeBord to unpack how to build hitters who make better in-game decisions, how to train under pressure, and how to align high school and travel programs so players stop living between two philosophies and start thriving.

We start with trust: Aaron meets seniors first, invites the whole community—not just parents—and then backs it up with consistent actions, from weight room structure to daily positive messages. That culture shift unlocks buy-in and sharper focus when it matters. From there, we dig into what actually translates for hitters: hunting the right pitch by count, using launch angle and exit velocity as tools rather than goals, and adjusting the swing to the moment to move runners and win innings.

On the tactical side, Aaron breaks down his aggressive identity—taking the extra 90, first-to-third pressure, and live baserunning reps that force outfielders and catchers to execute. His upgrade to the 21-outs drill, swapping sides within eight seconds after errors, injects game tempo and accountability. We also tackle the hardest dugout call in baseball: when to pull your ace in a must-win. Aaron shares real tournament moments, why he empowers his pitching coach, and how trusting a pitcher’s honesty can guide the decision. The takeaway is simple and hard: pitching drives outcomes, defense must make routine plays routine, and you can manufacture enough offense if you compete in the zone.

We close by rethinking parent relationships with transparency—open rubrics, open practices, open lines—so families become allies, not obstacles. Along the way, Aaron’s Mount Rushmore nods to Ken Griffey, Manny Ramirez, Tony Gwynn, and the chess master Greg Maddux, reminding us that feel, discipline, and anticipation still separate great players. If you’re a coach, parent, or player who cares about real development and smarter in-game choices, this one will sharpen your approach from the first pitch to the last decision.

If you enjoyed this conversation, follow the show, leave a quick review, and share it with a coach or baseball parent who’ll use it on the field tomorrow.

Transcript

Opening And Episode Focus

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today on Baseball Coaches Unplugged, you'll learn one of the biggest misconceptions between high school and travel baseball coaches: getting players to develop swings that work in a game and in-game decision making. Pull the pitcher or letting face one more batter, this and so much more, with Cloverleaf Head Baseball Coach Aaron DeBoard. Next on Baseball Coaches Unplugged.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

This is the Ultimate High School Baseball Coaching Podcast. Baseball Coaches Unplugged, your go-to podcast for baseball coaching tips, drills, and player development strategies. From travel to high school and college. Unlock expert coaching advice grounded in real success stories, data-backed training methods, and mental performance tools to elevate your team. Tune in for bite-sized coaching wisdom, situational drills, team culture building, great stories and proven strategies that turn good players into great athletes. The only podcast that showcases the best coaches from across the country with your host, Coach Ken Carpenter.

Meet Coach Aaron DeBoard

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Hello and welcome to Baseball Coaches Unplugged. I'm your host, Coach Ken Carpenter. Today's show is powered by the Netting Professionals. Improving programs one facility at a time. The Netting Pros specialize in the design, fabrication, and installation of custom netting for baseball and softball. This includes backstops, batting cages, BP turtles, screens, ball carts, and more. They also design and install digital graphic wall padding, windscreen, turf, turf protectors, dugout benches, and cubbies. The Netting Pros also work with football, soccer, lacrosse, golf courses, and now Pickleball. Contact them today at 844-620-2707. That's 844-620-2707. Or you can visit them online at www.nettingpros.com. Check out Netting Pros on X, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn for all their latest products and projects. Hey, before I forget, if you enjoyed today's show, please be sure to share it with another coach or baseball player or a baseball parent. And look for a new episode every Wednesday where I sit down with some of the best baseball coaches from across the country. Now to my sit-down with Clover Leaf, head baseball coach Aaron DeBort. Coach, thanks for taking time to be on Baseball Coaches Unplugged.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Ken, really excited to be here today. Thanks for uh taking the time to invite me and spent a little time talking ball today. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Well, we uh talked off air for just a few moments there, and uh you know you talked about you've only had three indoor practices, everything's been outside, and you're in northeast Ohio, and that that's uh pretty fortunate for coaches from Ohio, and uh right now we're getting close to the regular season starting, and it's going to be your first season there at Clover Leaf. You were at Stowe and you were also at Akron Firestone. What's the first thing you done you do to earn the players' trust?

Earning Trust And Building Community

Culture Shift And Mental Game

SPEAKER_01 3:14

You know, I think it's just you you gotta show them that you're invested in them. So from the day we took over there, uh, first thing I did is I met with our seniors, kind of told them my vision for what I wanted to do. Um, and then I asked them for input. Um, I wanted to see if they liked it, if they were on board with what we were trying to do. Uh, from there we kind of got the the community together. Instead of just inviting the the high school kids and parents out to do a meet the coaches, we actually invited the whole community. We invited the youth parents, the youth coaches. We wanted everyone and anybody that was interested to come kind of hear our vision. So we got them in a room, we talked about it, and um, you know, we talked about doing stuff with our youth, having youth practices, getting involved with the youth board, helping out with the youth tryouts, um, getting in the weight room, having an off-season program, which they haven't done the last couple years. Um, and then we followed through with the stuff we've we talked to them about. You know, so we, you know, I think the big thing is we we talk to our kids about accountability. And if we're preaching we're gonna do A, B, and C, then we got to go out and do A, B, and C. So it's been really, really cool. You know, from the time I got there, the kids, the parents, the school district, they are all totally invested in what we're trying to do. Um, they are excited about it, they're having fun. Um, and I think that's the key, is they're they're having fun. So when they're having fun, they want to keep doing things and doing more. And you know, we've been going in the weight room, you know, basically three days a week since September, October, and they hadn't done that before. Um, they really enjoyed that, and you know, it kind of just helped build those relationships and get to know the kids and try to spend as much time with them as we can outside of the baseball field, too. You know, we've done a couple community service things. Um, we'd go to the basketball games and spend time with the kids, try to get around and support the other uh other sports around the school. And um it's kind of fun starting over. It can be scary at times, but it's also fun because you get you get a whole new group of people with new ideas, and you know, they uh they've been really, really cool and supportive and about it all, and it's been good.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

What's the harder culture fix? The the way players practice or the way they think about themselves?

SPEAKER_01 5:16

I think nowadays it's the way they think about themselves. You know, we've spent a lot of time trying to coach them up on the mental aspects of baseball, um, really just trying to focus on believing in themselves, believing in what they do, all that kind of stuff from a practice perspective. Um, I don't know how it is for everybody else, but we've had complete buy-in from everything we're trying to do. They seem to really like our practices, they like the speed, the tempo. We're always um I'm a big believer in people not standing around. So we've always got guys moving, we've got two or three things going on at once. Uh, we're trying to, you know, train harder than we're playing, if that makes sense, so that when we get to the game, things are a little easier. Um, one thing we started doing this year is we're like you said, we're out on the field every day, so we're able to train and do some things differently. Um, you know, we're getting live at bats, practicing our batting practice. We've scrimmaged a couple times. We're really having them focus on being aggressive, trying to take the extra 90 feet, um, which you know, they're trying to go first to third, they're trying to go second to home. And not only does that let them test their limits offensively, but it felt it makes our defense work on those pressure plays where they got to hit the cut, they've got to be backing things up, and it's it's been really, really good. Um, but back to what you were saying about the the the mental health part of it, I I think it's just making sure that they know they're loved and that we believe in them. I think too many times nowadays they're they're being told what they can't do. We kind of live in this social media society where everyone's worried about likes and retweets and whatever else. And you know, we just got to keep keep telling them you love them and try to coach them up. And and and one of your guests from a few weeks ago, Jeff Milkarick, uh, is a good buddy of mine. And a couple years ago, he he challenged me to start sending a message to my team every day as he does to his team. And so every day the kids get some kind of positive message from me, whether it's about baseball or just about life, they get something from me every day, trying to kind of boost their morale, boost their energy, and and kind of give them something positive to think about in their daily, daily routine.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Well, you know, you talk about having uh coaches that you can kind of lean on. You know, I had a couple coaches here in Central Ohio that uh are good friends, and and uh they were also opposed, you know, you know, opposing coaches, you know. I had Tim Saunders and Chris Husman, both who have been guests on the podcast, but I also relied on my old high school coach, Mark Boner. And um is there a coach or mentor that uh kind of helped shape you as a coach?

Mentors And A Statewide Coaches Network

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I'm I'm real lucky to be involved in our state association, so I've got to know a lot of great people through there. Um I'm real close with a few of them, uh Jeff, Jeff Melcarrick being one who I often pick Jeff's brain. But locally, I've got a few really close friends. Uh my high school coach has become one of my better friends, uh Dennis Dever from Woodridge High School. Uh part of what interested me about the Clover Leaf job is they're actually in our league, so I'll get to play my own high school coach twice a year. But um I bet you in my my drive to and from Clover Leaf every day, I got a little over a half-hour drive each way every day. I've probably talked to Coach Dever three or four nights already in the first two weeks, just driving home, picking his brain, asking for advice and support. Um there's another guy from our area, uh Don Jones, retired Twinsburg coach, uh, used to be in my league when I was at Stowe, who he's now helping out one of his former players over at Crestwood. Uh, the two of those guys I frequently am and bouncing ideas off of, trying to see what they do, what they think about certain things, and they've both been super supportive of me my whole life, and and that's been really cool. Um, something else we did um not too long ago is I've got a group of friends from all around the state, guys that have won championships, done a lot better things than I have, um, and some younger guys that that I really like and that I trust, some guys from Columbus, some guys from Southwest Ohio, some guys from the Toledo area. Um, we've got kind of a text message group we started where anytime we have an idea, uh, we just kind of throw it in there and everybody bounces ideas off themselves. Uh, you know, for example, yesterday the question that got asked is, hey, has anyone made the move to coaching from in the dugout instead of being at third base? If you have, what are your thoughts for the positive and negatives? And I got you know 12, 14 people bouncing ideas off each other, which has been really, really cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Wow, that's great. I that's a great idea, and that's something that any coach from around the country can get with other coaches in in their state or their league and and do that. Well, you you know, I always kind of viewed being a high school coach as is a gift, and you can genuinely uh change a kid's life trajectory, you know. Can you share a moment where you realized your influence extended beyond the baseball field?

Impact Beyond Baseball

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah, you know, I I think that as coaches in high school, I think we're we're really trying to, you know, build better people, you know. Obviously, you want to win baseball games and coach the sport, but you're really teaching them about life. You're teaching them accountability, you're teaching them how to be a better, you know, hopefully future husband, father, whatever else. Um, you know, so I I can think of a number of times where we've had kids that have struggled academically and and not seen the importance of of that aspect of what they're doing. Um, something we've always stressed is we want kids to get higher grades than they have to to just be eligible. Um, and and sometimes the kids and parents think we're being a little harsh on them. But for us, it's more about just an accountability thing that little follow them through life where if you can't be trusted to get your homework done and and do things like that, you're gonna struggle with assignments from your boss, with with things you need to take care of in your daily life and just little things like that. So we had a kid a couple years back at Stowe uh without giving out any names that we we cut from our team because he he wasn't getting things done in the classroom he needed to get done. He would have been a varsity guy for us that would have helped us out. Um, you know, and of course he wasn't happy with that, and neither were mom and dad and whatever else, but the school was supportive. And um, a couple years later, he came back to me and and said, you know, I I really was frustrated with you doing that to me, but you know, that that really helped get my life back on track. From there I was able to focus on a few things and I was doing some things I shouldn't be doing outside of school. And you know, that that was the first time it kind of got put in perspective in me that something I love can get taken away when I I don't handle my responsibilities. Um, and now he's actually trying to get into coaching out in California where he lives and doing some cool stuff. So it's it's cool when you see those things kind of come back and and and and do the do the full circle effect, you know. I think everyone as a coach has seen seen things like that happen, and it's cool when you when you get to experience things like that.

High School Vs Travel: Misconceptions

SPEAKER_02 11:54

You're one of those coaches that's had a chance to coach high school in travel baseball. What's the single biggest misconception that high school coaches have about travel and vice versa?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

That's a great question. Um, so I actually started doing travel before I got into high school. I guess I was doing both at the same time, but I was more of a travel coach when I was younger than a than a high school coach, I think, in many people's opinions. But I've been doing both of these for over 20 years now. This is actually my 20th year doing doing the high school. So um what's the biggest misconception? I I think that there's a a willingness to work together from some people and an unwillingness from others. I think some coaches are afraid of what other people are teaching their kids. Um and instead of being afraid of it, I think they just need to collaborate more. You need to work with your your people that are doing things and be invested in them so that um you can be working together. I think as a high school coach, a lot of guys think, oh, you know, they're paying all this money to do these things. Um coaches are just taking their money and and and making a thousand dollars off each kid and you know, getting rich off of it. Um, the program that I run, the Ohio Longhorns, we don't make money off the kids that we coach. Whatever our bill was for our team, you know, we'd split it between the 15 kids and 16 kids, whatever it was, and that's that's what it costs. It wasn't something we're we were making a bunch of money on, we were just doing it. But the reality of it is in travel baseball, the costs have gone up for those organizations. And I don't think many high school coaches realize that. I think high school coaches think travel teams are trying to get rich, and some of them are, some of them are trying to make a living off it, and I don't fault them for that. But the reality of it is what I used to be able to do for five, six hundred dollars a kid now costs two thousand dollars a kid to do the same amount of stuff. And if you're not doing that stuff, then you lose kids. Um, and that and that's really tough because you you want to keep those costs down, but you don't want to take away opportunity, and so you're kind of in a rock and a hard place there as a travel program. You know, from the opposite, I I think high school coaches, I think I think travel coaches don't give high school coaches enough credit for the amount of work they put in, the relationships they have with the kids and the amount of knowledge they really have. You know, I think that I think a lot of travel coaches think that they know everything and that the high school coaches don't know much of anything. Um, and uh in our area, we've got a lot of coaches that have really good relationships with the travel programs, and I think that's why we have a lot of good travel baseball. But I've also seen the flip side of that where there's no communication, it's constant headbutting, and it's this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, and that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. And it just goes back to if you're willing to have those conversations with your travel coaches and communicate and and invest in them together, you know, you can make the kids have a better experience.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Well, let me ask you this, you know, if you're a high school coach and you know, you're you're you're teaching your guys to you know have good have good swings, put the ball in play, and then uh let's say there's a travel coach has you know got this whole launch angle thing where they think kids are gonna be hitting 20 home runs a season, and the reality is that doesn't happen. You know, how how do you get the kid who's kind of stuck in the middle to uh buy into what you're trying to do and and and get them to understand that you know there's there's a lot of different ways you can coach it, but it's it's tough on a high school coach and it's tough on a travel coach who maybe you know they have total two totally different beliefs in it.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

No, I that that's a conversation I've had with kids. That's that's a real conversation. Some some some hitting coaches out there, their training is they want the launch angle and the exit velocity, and they don't care about the actual game result. You know, they're they're developing who can hit it the hardest off a T and who can you know get that number that pops at a showcase that gets their kid, you know, right going up the rankings and making them look good, right? But a lot of times that doesn't translate to the game. Um and I think again, it just goes back to having those conversations. I think the kids need to know that I think both can be good for a kid, right? I think there are times where working on that exit velocity and that launch angle can be a good thing, but there's also times where there's two strikes and you got a runner on second base and you got to choke up and ground up to put the ball on the right side so you can advance the run. Um, you know, one of the big things we spent time, like we had an inner squad yesterday on our field, we've got to play seven full innings outside yesterday on our field. And when we were done, one of the things we talked about with our kids is I told them I said, I think the biggest things that the biggest thing that separates high school hitters, in my opinion, isn't their ability to hit, it's their ability to swing at the right pitches. So many times kids are swinging at a pitch just because it's a strike. You know, if it's a 2-0 pitch that you can't do damage with, you shouldn't be swinging at it. You know, it if you are gonna swing at it, take a swing where it's gonna do some some damage. Don't just take a swing where you're trying to put the ball in play. Like if you're gonna swing in a plus count for yourself, you've got to really take a swing that's gonna matter. You know, so I think again, you know, I've had coaches where we've had disagreements on you know, pitching things or hitting things, and you know, instead of arguing with the kid and putting the kid in the middle, I think it's important get in the same room. You know what I mean? Go go to one of their hitting sessions where that guy's coaching them and see how see what he's saying. And sometimes it's just a communication gap where what the coach is saying really isn't what the kid's telling you he's saying. It's just uh a miscommunication on how it's being delivered, you know. So I I think again it goes back to if you're willing to put yourself out there as a high school or travel coach and go be a part of the process where you're all working together, then the kid's gonna have a better result in the end.

When To Pull The Pitcher

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Well, I I had a uh a coach reach out to me, uh young coach, and he's uh you know, maybe in his first or second year, and um, you know, he he asked me to kind of get into some questions that can help him become a better coach. And you know, that that's why I wanted to kind of jump into like end-game decision making, I guess. You know, a challenge every head coach has faces every game is uh deciding when to pull a pitcher. Take me through your thought process when it's a tournament game and you know it's late in the season, and you know, you you gotta have your best guy out there on the mound, but you know, you also gotta look at uh possibly pulling them because they're they're struggling. How do how do you work through that?

Coaching Style: Pressure And Aggression

SPEAKER_01 18:10

You know, that's always tough, right? When you're when you're in a one and done tournament of you know, one one at bat can can change the game. Um sometimes you got some really tough decisions to make. You know what I mean? Um last year we we lost in the regionals to Walsh Jesuit. We we pulled our best pitcher. Um, you know, he had he was close to his pitch count, and the the bottom of the next inning, the very first pitch was a walk-off home run. Um, you know, was it the right call? I I think at the time we made the right call. You know, we trusted the guy we were putting in after him, and the kid just hit had had a nice swing, right? You know, but if if if you know we leave that our our number one in, what happens? You know, I I can think of a game, everyone's got games you remember where you do the right thing and the wrong thing. You know, 10 years ago we were we were in the regionals plan or the district's finals playing Walsh Jesuit, and we had a pitcher coming up to bat. We were up one, and he had not had to bat all year. He was our closer, we had had to bring him in the sixth inning, and we had bases loaded, and he was up to bat with two outs. And if we pinch hit for him, then we we were in a spot where we didn't know who was going to pitch the next inning. Um, so we let him bat because we had a lead, and you know, he he missed the first two pitches by about as far as you can mitz. And then the third pitch, he he got lucky and hit a triple down the line off a kid going to Ohio State on a ball that I don't even know he saw hit his bat. You know, so we we made that pitching call and it was right. You know, but then the next week in the regionals we're playing Solon and we didn't even get to him because you know by the time by the time we made our pitching change with with our number two, the game was already out of hand, and you know, you go out there without your best guy. So, you know, the last 10 10 years or so, you know, I've asked myself a thousand times, man, should we just started him in game two and just seen how far he could go and figure it out? You know, I I think I don't think there's a right or wrong call with that kind of stuff. You kind of got to trust your kid, trust your gut. Um, I'm a big believer in empowering my coaches, so my pitching coaches make our pitching decisions. You know, I'll give them my input, I'll tell them who I want here or there. But you know, if if if they disagree with me, I I can think of a, you know, I can count less to less times than on my fingers how many times I overruled my pitching coach last year. You know what I mean? I had a really good guy, and that's how it typically is. If you're gonna be the pitching guy for me, I want you fully invested in that. I want your pulse on it, and I want you to make those calls as my pitching coach. Um, but I also think that I I'd probably give kids a little too long of a leash because I believe in my guys. You know, if they tell me, coach, I got it, I want the ball, I want to give them the ball because I want them to have an opportunity to go go make those plays. You know, part of why I made the decision last year, we made the decision to to switch to that other kid, is because the the kid that was pitching said he said he was done. He said, I don't think I have any more left. I trust our guy, you know, make make the switch. If he would have been adamant about wanting to stay in, I don't know what we would have done. I think I would have wanted to leave him, leave him in. I think my other coaches might have wanted to take him out. So that would have been, who knows? Yeah. You know, and I I think it's one of those things where you're always gonna second guess yourself when it goes wrong and you're gonna think you made the right call when it goes right. You know, it's just it's the reality uh of pitching is there's so many unknowns with that stuff where sometimes when you're right, you're right, sometimes when you're right, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. I you know, going back to the kid that hadn't had a nap bat and he gets a triple against Waltz Judgewood. And if anybody outside of Ohio wants to know who Walsh Judgewood is, just look them up. They're they're a powerhouse here in the state of Ohio. Did he come back to you after that and say, like, coach, I should have been hitting all season long?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

No, not not at all. He he jokes to this day that he is glad that that he never got the hit after that or before that. And he he didn't even want to hit in that moment. He wasn't even going to swing, he was just gonna go in there and and and and see if they'd walk. Him essentially. But his name was Logan Huffman. I still talk to Logan to this day. Parents live right around the corner from me. Just, you know, just one of those cool moments where his only at bat is off a kid. Actually, the kid that was pitching for Walsh, his name's Dom Canzone. He's actually a right fielder with the Mariners now. And so his only high school at bat, he hit he hit a triple off a kid that's playing in the big leagues now. And it's just a cool memory and story. And uh Dom played for me in the summers, so I was close with Dom too. And um, you know, it's it's one of those fun memories to have from both sides of it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Yes, definitely. Well, how would opposing coaches describe your style of coaching and why do you coach that way?

Underused Drill: Live Baserunning

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Uh, they'd probably say we're very aggressive. Um, I I am a big believer in making high school kids make plays. Um, we will bunt, we'll steal, we'll hit and run. You know, when when I got a guy on second base and there's a single to the outfield, and we probably should hold him up at third, we're gonna throw, we're gonna send him more times than we're gonna hold them. We're gonna try to go first to third more times than we should. Because more times than not, high school kids aren't gonna make the great throw. They're gonna either try to overthrow it or the kid's gonna bobble it on the catch. And I'm a big believer in putting pressure on the opponent instead of letting the opponent put the pressure on you. So if we're the one kind of pushing the pedal to the middle, um, more times than not, I think we're gonna come out ahead on that battle. So I I guess my opponents would probably say we're a little more aggressive than most. Um, you know, but we're we're not shy either. You know, I cloverleaf is a division four school in Ohio, smaller school. Um, and you know, when we made our schedule this year, I talked to my AD. I said, Hey, I I I I care what our record is, but I don't care what our record is. I'd rather be prepared for the playoffs and face some pitching that we're not going to face in our league that might cost us some wins, but but we'll be ready for the playoffs. You know, so you know, we're we're playing three teams from our suburban league that we were in last year that are much bigger schools than us. We're going down to Massel and Jackson and we're playing against my buddy Bill Gamble on late in the season. Uh, me and him every other year for the last, I don't know, six, seven years have traded off doing each other senior nights. And so it was my year to go to him. And when when I got the job at Cloverleaf, he asked if I still wanted to come, and I said absolutely. And you know, we're we're not afraid of the opponent. You know, we're not afraid of putting pressure on him, and we want to challenge our kids. And, you know, I think if you set the bar high, the kids, the kids elevate to that level you you set that bar to. If you set it low, they're gonna sink to that level. So we want to challenge our kids and not not be afraid of any of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

What is one drill or practice concept that most coaches underutilize, but you swear by it?

Pitching Over Defense Or Offense

SPEAKER_01 24:52

That's a good question. Um, you know, we we really do a lot of situational base running. I think base running is a very underutilized. Um I think a lot of people work on steals and steal starts and delayed steals and all that stuff, but we do a lot of that live with our catchers throwing. Um, we do also do a lot of that live with our outfielders throwing to the bases. I had mentioned earlier one thing we're doing, anytime we're doing live in-game scrimmage stuff, um, we're or we're doing you know, a drill called 21 outs, and I'm sure everybody does where you're trying to get 21 outs in a row without making an error. Um, we are always trying to take the extra 90 feet. So if if our guy is a hard 90 out of the box and he thinks he can get second, he we we swear by him trying to get to second base and making our defense make that play. If he gets thrown out as second, we'll put him back in first base and the out won't count. The defense has to make the play, but again, our guys are working on being aggressive, trying to learn their limits, and it's also forcing the defense to do that. Um, something I heard um at ABCA this past year, and I can't remember who I heard it from that we we incorporated this year, is we we split our varsity guys into two groups, and when we're doing that 21 out still where we're really getting the competitive base running going, whenever we make an error, we just switch teams on and off the field. And they've got they've got eight, 10 seconds to get off the field. Um, and it really it really adds a lot of uh momentum, competition, speed to the drill. And I've really, really liked that. But I think the biggest thing that that I swear by is really incorporating live base running um and the pressure that that brings for the defense with that. I think it's important to stress anything you're doing where you're doing defensive drills, have base runners. Put put a that way you're instead of using, you know, a lot of coaches will use the stopwatch and say you got to get there in four seconds. I think sometimes having the kid actually running down the line is what causes the the nerves of the guy throwing the ball. So we always want a guy running down the line so that they've got to beat that kid down to down the line. It also teaches them some kids are faster, some kids are slower. Learn your learn your your runner. You you got a green runner where you got to get rid get up and get rid of the ball, or you got a red runner where you can take your time, set your feet, and get an extra step and throw a strike over to first base.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yes, I I love the the whole concept. I was I was big on getting the guys on and off the field, you know, that eight eight second rule there. And it's amazing by doing that, the umpires will like you too because that just keeps the game moving. And you know, spring in Ohio, there's some some cold, windy days that you have to deal with, and you know, that just uh speeds the game up, and there's nothing better than having a game where you know you're out of there and the game's over in an hour and a half because uh guys are hustling, guys are throwing strikes, and you know, you're playing solid defense. And if you had to pick one thing that uh to give your team a chance to win more games, and you can only focus on one of these three things, why would you focus on one of these? Would it be offense, defense, or pitching?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

It'd be pitching. I I think everything goes back to pitching. You know, if you if you can't throw strikes, you're gonna lose a lot of baseball games. You know, the biggest thing that we've been talking to our kids about is we've got to compete in the zone. Um, you gotta compete in the zone. If you can't throw strikes, you're not gonna win baseball games. Um, you know, obviously you gotta swing it a little bit, you gotta play good defense, take care of the baseball. But if you're just walking guys left and right, you know, it's it's not gonna make a whole lot of difference. Um, the kid I had last year, um, my number one pitcher last year is a kid named Josh Moore, and I would go to battle with Josh against anybody in the state any day of the week. Um, that kid just grinds and competes and is not afraid of anything. But Josh throws the ball 74 miles an hour on a good day. You know what I mean? But Josh throws strikes, he locates his pitches, and he he he moves them around, he's not afraid of anybody. You know, Josh beat some of the best teams in the state last year for me in the summer in the high school because he competes in the zone. He's not afraid of an opponent. Um, you know, and and he works quick, he gives your defense a chance. I think when you pitch it okay, you're always gonna have a chance to win. You know, if you're a team that relies on doubles and home runs, sometimes you're not gonna be able to hit that pitcher. You're gonna have to manufacture some offense. Um, I think if you can take care of the baseball defensively, you're gonna be okay. But if you can't pitch it, none of it none of it really matters if you're just walking guys around the bases or getting showed. What do you think? If you could only do one, which one would you do?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I I'm kind of stuck between pitching and defense. You know, because I I I always try to stress to our guys defensively, just make the routine play. If you make a diving catch or you know, a phenomenal play that normally doesn't happen, that's great. But I was always a big uh proponent of just just make the routine plays and we got a chance to win. But when it comes to the game, I mean if you're a team that doesn't have pitching, uh you're gonna you're gonna struggle. It's it's gonna be a a long day for you. And you know, if you're in that situation where you maybe have that one pitcher that you can count on, but after that it it becomes a challenge, uh, you know, it it's gonna be tough. And and that really the the players know it too. They know when, hey, we got our ace on the mound, we got a chance, and you know, we can lock in. But it if you don't have you know more than one that can uh compete for you, it makes it tough because the players know it and it it becomes a challenge for everybody. So, you know, I I guess if I if I had to believe one, it would have to probably, like you, it has to come down to pitching.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

You're right with the defense, though. You know, I I I we've been practicing for two weeks, but I bet you I've told the kids a thousand times you got to play catch it at a championship level. You know, Coach Duncan used Kennedy State used to always say that championship teams play catch at a championship level. Throw the ball around the infield, you're throwing strikes to each other, you're not bouncing balls, and you got to make the routine plays routine. You don't have to make the spectacular plays, you don't have to, but the routine plays have to become routine outs. Yes, without a doubt. Well, do you hate losing or love winning? You asked that question to somebody else, and I and I thought about that. I ask it of every guest, you know, and it's um I I hate to say that that I I hate losing, you know, because I think losing when you lose, you you look for things that you can improve on, and sometimes you get better from losing. Um, so I think I'd say I like winning more uh because you you enjoy the highs and the fun with your team and the celebrations, and there's nothing better than going going to your opponent's place and beating a rival on the road and having having everybody excited and having a good time. But when you lose, I mean obviously nobody wants to lose, right? But when you lose as a coach, you go home, you look at the film, you look for things you can coach your kids up on. You know, so if you got the right perspective about it, you're you're finding ways to turn that loss into positive things that'll hopefully become wins.

Parents As Partners

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yes. Well, you know, I I I had a season where I, you know, I was with uh just uh unbelievable staff, and you know, we had Chris Husman who's in the Hall of Fame, we had Dave Malecki that pitched uh you know 10 plus years in the in the major leagues. We had Jay Stoner, who was a uh Division I player, and we had uh Mike Lockwood who played for Ohio State and made it into triple A. And there were times during the season where we all looked at each other and said, Did that just really happen? Did have you um had a game where you're like, oh my god, I I don't think I've ever seen that before in a baseball game.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yeah, I mean, I think we all have, right? You know, we we've ever handful of plays that you remember that you'll never forget. Um I honestly, the one that sticks out the most for me was one that went against us. Um, that I'll always forget. Um we're we're playing Solon in the regionals that year I was talking about earlier, and you know, they scored in the top of the first, and in the bottom of the inning, our our leadoff guy gets on base, he's and and then we somebody gets out, but we got a runner at second base, our our best hitters up, and he smokes this ball to shortstop that I think is going to be a triple in the gap. And this kid at short jumps up, and you know, everyone's seen that old Omar Viscell picture where his, you know, it looks like jump man Jordan logo where he skies up in the air, and this kid jumps up and catches the ball and lands on his butt and doubles us off at second, and that was the momentum that killed the game, and it was from that point on it it was done. Um, but I've never seen a kid jump that high and make a play like that in the infield, and I'll I'll always remember that. Um, and that kid actually is a goalie in MLS now. Um, so it's one of those things where he obviously that that extended reach has gone well for him, but um, you know, you you you have you as like I said, as coaches, you always have some great ones. We we had a kid make a play of that that same game in center field for us, one of those Willie Mays style catches where he's running over his shoulder, and this ball absolutely should have been a triple or inside the park home run at this minor league stadium. We're playing that, and he he just made an unbelievable catch where he's running back and you know reaches up and catches it over his shoulder. I don't even know that he saw it going in, but um, those those are both pretty special plays in that same game where you rarely do you see more than one thing happen like that once, and probably the two most memorable ones I had came in the same baseball game.

Mount Rushmore And Maddux Mind Games

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Wow. Well, every coach has a parent story that they share with the other coaches, whether it be at clinics or whatever it may be, without getting yourself in trouble, and you you it could be from your travel or your high school. Do you have a parent story that you're like, oh my god, you would not you guys will not believe this one?

SPEAKER_01 34:57

I I got more of those than I'd like to share, but instead of instead of sharing some some negative ones, I'll share a positive one. All right. Okay. So I I think one thing that that I've done over the years, um, and I'm trying to be better about as we go forward, is instead of excluding the parents from things as high school coaches, open them up to your processes. Show them what you're doing, why you're doing it, how it works, invite them. Like I've got parents that are coming and watching us practice on our new turf field every day. You know what I mean? Do I love that? I'm okay with it. You know what I mean? But I think if you're open to letting them be a part of the solution as opposed to a part like making it seem like they're a part of the problem, you're gonna you're gonna have a lot less parent problems. Like this year, we we all do tryouts our own way, right? You know, I actually had a meeting with the parents. I showed them our rubric, I show them how we grade it one to eight for every single thing, and I told them, Hey, your kid's gonna come home and you know, we're gonna have 35 kids or so try out, and they're gonna get told they ranked one to 35, or you know, some of the you know, you don't like telling a kid, hey, sorry, you're 35th out of 35. But when he goes home and tells mom and dad, hey, I was 35th out of 35th, I was the seventh first baseman, it's hard to argue with that. You might not like it, but it's hard to argue with that. You know, so I would just encourage younger coaches, and instead of making the parents, you know, seem like the enemy, invite them to be part of the solution and part of the success. Um, let them, because if you you invest in them, they're gonna want to invest in you. You know, I I've got a parent actually right now who's texting me up at our field, building us a bullpen bench in our in our dugout, so we have a bench out in our bullpen for our kids because we've invested in that parent group and they they believe in what we're doing. Um, so instead of making parents enemies, you know, make them part of the solution.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Who is your Mount Rushmore of baseball? And who gets left off that people would totally disagree with you?

SPEAKER_01 36:50

You know, so from so I I grew up in the 90s, you know. So for me, Ken Griffey Jr. was always my favorite, favorite guy. I I loved watching Griffey and Manny. Those were my two favorites. That to this day, if I got if I gotta have somebody to get a hit, I want Manny Ramirez hitting even at 50 years old. Um, and then I don't know if you're watching the world baseball class, but his son hit two homers the other day against it's just that that guy can just absolutely absolutely mash a baseball. Um, you know, I loved the two of them. I loved watching Greg Maddox pitch, um, guy that just threw strikes and commanded the strike zone. Where in today's world, you know, here's a question for you. If Greg Maddox was coming up today, does he throw hard enough to even get a chance? Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

You gotta wonder about that, you know. And he I I didn't realize it, but he he called his own pitches. Yeah.

Start, Bench, Trade: Judge, Jose, Soto

SPEAKER_01 37:41

You know, so he he did I read this story about him that I thought was the coolest thing that I shared with our kids. It was uh I forget who they were playing, uh, but I think it was the Astros, and he was pitching to Jeff Bagwell, and and and he kept he wanted a certain pitch, and the catcher kept you know saying no and shaking it off. And the catcher goes out there and gets it gets to have a little conversation with them, and Maddox does what he does, and the kid catcher goes back, and next pitch Maddox throws the pitch he wants. Bagwell hits a home run. Catcher's, you know, told you so, you know what I mean? Two weeks later, he's got Bagwell, they're playing in the playoffs, same situation, and and Bagwell's expecting certain things, that's what he did. And Maddox was out there playing for two weeks ahead, letting him think he's he's he's learned something about him because he wanted him to have success there so he could beat him later. You know, just just thinking 10 steps ahead of the game, you know, stuff like that where it's like that that that's what's fun about baseball is it's a it's a long chess game. You know, you know what I mean. People that people think baseball's boring, don't understand how many different things are going on on every pitch and every play and every scenario. Um you know, but those three guys, um, I I loved, I loved watching. I loved watching Tony Gwynn hit. Um, you know, I being a Cleveland guy, I I loved all those all those guys from the 90s Indians teams, you know, Kenny Lofton and Carlos Berga and Manu Ramirez. And I just had a blast growing up watching watching that. And I got to, you know, being a kid when when when Sosa and Maguire were doing the the home run race and and doing all that, you know, now now I love watching guys like Jose Ramirez, I love watching Bryce Harper, I like watching Kyle Schwerber, um, just guys that play the game hard and hustle. And um, I think that's why I always liked Jose. Is he just he's always going a million miles an hour. You know, he he plays the way I want our kids to play with with no fear. He's got emotion, he's aggressive, he he just guys like that.

Closing Thanks And Sponsor Reminder

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yes, definitely. Well, this, you know, you being a big Cleveland fan, this this last question I want to ask you is um I'm gonna put you in a hot seat, and it's gonna involve your your guy, Jose Ramirez. You're an MLB manager, and you gotta start one player, bench another player, and trade the other one. And the three players are Juan Soto, Jose Ramirez, and Aaron Judge.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

That's tough. I you know, I I think Aaron Judge, the stuff he does is just so unbelievable. Um, he he he's just he's turned into so much better of a player than I thought he would stay consistently. I mean, to have that kind of power and still hit for the average he does and walk as much as he does, and he's great defensively, as much as it pains me to say, I think I think he's the best of the three, you know. Um, and then for me, I like I said, I just like the way Jose plays the game. And so I I would want a guy like Jose on my team more than Soto just because I think the way he impacts his team with his energy and hit his his steal and bases, everything he does, I think I would I would want him on the field before I want Juan Soto, but I think they're also very different players. Um they're very different styles. Um, but for me, I I think I'd I I'd probably play Judge Sid Jose and trade Soto as much as that pains me to say to Sid Jose.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yes, and the thing about Jose is, you know, in this world of you know, guys want to all the money they could possibly get, you know, for people that aren't fans of uh Cleveland. I mean, here's a guy playing that just he's like he's not asking for the biggest contract. He he he he loves where he's at, and you know, he he's gonna be one of those guys that there's going to be a statue when he retires.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Oh, without a doubt. I mean, if he wanted more money, he could have left a couple years ago when when he was up instead of signing that deal he did, just like Lindor did. And nobody would have blamed him for it. They would have yelled at the ownership and been upset, you know. But very rarely do you see, like you said, they're making so much money where very rarely do you see the athletes say, hey, I'm comfortable here. I like, I like where I'm at. I don't need a bigger stage. They've treated me good. I want to treat them good. And that's what Jose's done. He has been just a steward for Cleveland sports and athletics, and he's great in the community. Um, like anything that that you can you can you dream of guys like that when you're a small market franchise guys that value where they're at. Because normally guys like that are people that leave Cleveland. I mean, you can think of all the people over the years that have left in their prime that we've lost. We lost Manny, we lost Jim Tomey, we lost CC Sabathia, we lost Cliff Lee, you know, we lost all those guys that I grew up with because we couldn't afford to pay him. We lost Frankie, you know, and then Jose says, I'm gonna take less money to stay. How do you how do you not just want to run through the wall for that guy when you're when you're a teammate? It's without a doubt. Pretty special.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Well, it's Aaron DeBoard, the Clover Leaf High School Coach here in Ohio. Coach, I've uh been wanting to get you on for quite some time, and I I really appreciate you taking the time to be on Baseball Coaches Unplugged.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

No, coach, I know we've chatted a few times before about doing this, so I really appreciate you making time today. And um I'm looking forward to a fun spring, and hopefully everyone uh has a good time. I really thank you for your time today and for having me on and look forward to catching up with you more in the future. Thank you, coach, and good luck this season.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Today's show is Powered Pi, the Netting Professionals Improving Programs One Facility at a time. Contact them today at 844-620-2707, or you can visit them online at www.nettingprose.com. Special thanks to Aaron DeBord. Be sure to tune in every Wednesday where I sit down with some of the best baseball coaches from across the country. As always, I'm your host, Coach Ken Carpenter. Thanks for listening to Baseball Coaches Unplugged.